[scramblinman]

As we know, the Termi race pipe comes with a reflash of the ECU.

Let's use this as a venue to discuss who has/hasn't retuned after changing their exhaust and what you experiences were.

I'm curious about the third party slip-ons, but am nervous that I will have a degradation in performance without a new tune.

What pipe do you have and how has it worked out for you?

 

[brendanfalkowski]

I'm also interested in why people change the Scrambler's exhaust (waiting for August delivery). I've only had 30+ year old bikes and don't have any experience with roaring engines and performance tuning.

Is it sound, power, or fueling that's making people jump? Seems like a high percentage on the forum have bought the race Termignoni immediately or installed on delivery.

 

[TC3]

I'm also interested in why people change the Scrambler's exhaust (waiting for August delivery). I've only had 30+ year old bikes and don't have any experience with roaring engines and performance tuning.

Is it sound, power, or fueling that's making people jump? Seems like a high percentage on the forum have bought the race Termignoni immediately or installed on delivery.

With the race Termi it has to be sound as I am not keen on how it looks. Myself I want a balance of improved sound and sharper looks

 

[tonyjuliano]

I'm also interested in why people change the Scrambler's exhaust (waiting for August delivery). I've only had 30+ year old bikes and don't have any experience with roaring engines and performance tuning.

Is it sound, power, or fueling that's making people jump? Seems like a high percentage on the forum have bought the race Termignoni immediately or installed on delivery.

All of the above, plus weight reduction.

The CAT and silencer on the Scrambler must weigh at least 15 lbs.

 

[marxtringer]

Sound! Definitely

 

[silverluxe]

One dyno run I saw put the OEM muffler against a bike with the Termi muffler and the horsepower curves looked nearly identical. So it's all about the sound (which I can't blame anyone for seeking out.)

I kind of like having a quiet bike that doesn't draw the ire of police or any other person on a bike.

The bike is fuel injected so you can probably put a piece of straight fence post on the exhaust as a muffler and the computer will attempt to adapt to it within reason. Getting rid of the OEM map bypasses emissions standards and uses more gasoline with the annoying side effect of a bit more horsepower

But it's not like a carburetor where people upjet the main jet 5 numbers so they can stick straight pipes on their old Honda or whatever. Not that THAT was ever a proper solution, but that's just common perception of what you do when you put on a free flowing muffler. Proper ECU mapping is like proper carb jetting in that it dials several things into a better state than just trying to force the computer to re-learn fueling and subsequently overcoming your entire range of throttle with JUST main jet changes.

 

[DJKham]

I'm also interested in why people change the Scrambler's exhaust (waiting for August delivery). I've only had 30+ year old bikes and don't have any experience with roaring engines and performance tuning.

Is it sound, power, or fueling that's making people jump? Seems like a high percentage on the forum have bought the race Termignoni immediately or installed on delivery.

There is no doubt that uncorking the exhaust has a few benefits. The question is more whether or not those are meaningful enough to you to spend the $$$:

1) Weight saving: Most aftermarket pipes lose the catalytic converter (heavy) so you're effectively shaving off a few lbs from an already light bike. Does that make a significant difference in day-to-day use? On its own, probably not. With other mods, power gains etc...maybe?

2) Power: We're talking small gains (2-5 HP at the wheel and comparable torque on this bike) but may be a factor for some. Worth noting that Termi solutions will be the only ones to come with their own re-map/ECU so fueling and power SHOULD be as good, if not better than stock. Other aftermarket pipes do not come with an ECU remap so it's up to the owner to decide if a remap is required (subject of this thread) or if they are happy running stock mapping (in most Ducs that use this type of motor from years past, fueling at low RPM does degrade by doing slip-on only and no remap and I would assume that it's going to be the case with the Scrambler). You also get into existential questions here, such as "does this bike need more power?" (and the answer...well, it's pretty much always yes )

3) Aesthetics: Subjective, but also a factor. Shotgun, under-seat, high pipe, etc

4) Sound: This one, to me, if probably the most significant reason for switching to aftermarket. Losing the catalytic converter usually makes the bike louder, then, depending on the pipe design, will also modify the sound (growl, shriek, purr...and everything in between). A bike that sounds better may "feel" faster...whether or not it's actually making more power is another story. Motorcycling is a visceral experience so it's no surprise that most Ducs end up with aftermarket pipes at some point.

 

[Jerry Winder]

For me I prefer the look of the Termi, it's a beautifully finished piece of engineering, and the sound without the DB killer is awesome. I've always liked loud cans, I doubt most people will notice a few BHP either way so to change simply for power I consider something of a waste of time. If you want more power you bought the wrong bike!


Jerry

 

[tonyjuliano]

The bike is fuel injected so you can probably put a piece of straight fence post on the exhaust as a muffler and the computer will attempt to adapt to it within reason.

You don't understand how fuel injection on a motorcycle works.

Most FI on bikes is a very primitive "open-loop" type system. Almost all of these have no sensors and no "learning" of any kind. Just fueling provided by a programmed fuel map (monitored by the ECU looking at RPM's and throttle position).

The Scrambler does, however, have a "semi-closed-loop" system - which monitors the condition in the pipe (lean or rich) and makes adjustments accordingly.

BUT...

Even with this level of "sophistication", adjustments are only made at the very high end of the RPM scale. At low to moderate RPM's - it's fuel map only - no adjustments, and certainly no "learning".

These are not cars, which have infinitely more complex systems.

 

[silverluxe]

I understand how it works fairly well. There are oxygen sensors which definitely feed back information with this configuration on the Scrambler (and are hard or impossible to bypass with this ECU.) It's part of the reason that hooking a Dynojet Power Commander onto this bike is probably somewhat worthless. It's enough to adjust for a trip up and down a mountain. You see a lot of idiots running around FI bikes with the mufflers cut off. I'm sure it's not the best thing in the world for the health of the engine, but it's also not putting holes in the pistons.

I also said within reason. Whatever muffler you stick on there might surpass what the computer would like to do at a given gear:rpm ratio due to overly lean conditions but the computer will swing as far as it is allowed to on the fuel map. My hunch is that most damage, if any, is done at idle and 'take off' as opposed to WOT.

 

[tonyjuliano]

I understand how it works fairly well. There are oxygen sensors which definitely feed back information with this configuration on the Scrambler (and are hard or impossible to bypass with this ECU.) It's part of the reason that hooking a Dynojet Power Commander onto this bike is probably somewhat worthless. It's enough to adjust for a trip up and down a mountain. You see a lot of idiots running around FI bikes with the mufflers cut off. I'm sure it's not the best thing in the world for the health of the engine, but it's also not putting holes in the pistons.

I also said within reason. Whatever muffler you stick on there might surpass what the computer would like to do at a given gear:rpm ratio due to overly lean conditions but the computer will swing as far as it is allowed to on the fuel map. My hunch is that most damage, if any, is done at idle and 'take off' as opposed to WOT.

No, you definitely don't understand...


Those are narrow band lambda sensors on this bike. Because of the time delay needed to get the air/fuel ratio cycling around stoichiometric, an accelerating engine can’t be effectively controlled in this way using narrow band sensors. This is why most Closed Loop systems operate only when the throttle opening is constant and the rate of RPM change is very low

it's all straight fuel map under other than those conditions. This system makes NO adjustments - regardless of rich or lean condition in the pipes - at anything other very steady RPM's.

 

[silverluxe]

Yeah, which is why my hunch is that damage done to the bike with a non stock muffler would be done in those ranges.

I think we're on the same page, but it sounds like you're trying to browbeat me for dominant superiority?

 

[tonyjuliano]

Yeah, which is why my hunch is that damage done to the bike with a non stock muffler would be done in those ranges.

I think we're on the same page, but it sounds like you're trying to browbeat me for dominant superiority?

Huh??

Oh ****, never mind - you just keep thinking what you think.

 

[silverluxe]

You haven't really told us what you think, which is the confusing part. You've just told me I'm wrong about a bunch of stuff. What is your opinion of the dangers of installing aftermarket exhaust without applying a new fuel map.

I'm of the opinion that it will be OK because the system can handle it.

 

[tonyjuliano]

A slip-on that takes also eliminates the CAT? No danger what-so-ever.

But its not because of "the system" (as you put it). The system would have nothing to do with it - which was my whole point.

You implied that there would be no issue because "the system" would see and adapt to this change - which is incorrect, except in the most narrow of conditions, and what I took exception to.

 

[silverluxe]

Well then we agree? What I was getting at is that you won't ruin your engine like back in the days of running a lean OEM pilot and main jet in a carburetor when you simply bolt up a new muffler and go for a rip down the road. I don't know about "most narrow of conditions" since I assumed the system could handle sea level and 15,000 feet with the stock form.

The catalytic converter is physically part of the OEM slip-on muffler so it comes off no matter what. I think I saw a Remus muffler (and the Termi low mount) that have their own catalytic converter incorporated into the design, but that's about it. Those would probably be -safer- mufflers to use than something like the Zard or SC Project ones, yes?

 

[alepplew]

You implied that there would be no issue because "the system" would see and adapt to this change - which is incorrect, except in the most narrow of conditions, and what I took exception to.

Silverluxe is absolutely correct because the engine is running >90% in the closed loop regime. Unless you are permanently revving up and down for getting rid of your rear tire after 1000 miles... And the fixed map regime could care less about exhaust flow. Can be seen from the minuscule claimed torque and power gains the muffler guys are providing....

There are to my knowledge 3 exhausts available with cat:
Termi
Remus
Zard low

I like the cat, stinks less and is less toxic.

 

[silverluxe]

I wasn't really that thorough in my describing the difference between the fixed and variable portions of the fuel map.

I really hope someone cracks the ECUs in an easy way so we can simply start creating better maps in the future. My bike seems to run pretty good with what came with it though and I'm getting up to 50mpg so far, so I am not the sort of person to start messing with it. All of my bikes have the OEM exhaust systems because I'm just that way. But being able to modify and upload the maps greatly interests me because I'm up for any change to the map table data that can make the bike run better (smoother, cooler, faster, whatever.)

I'm not a genius with it by any means, but I reject the concept of piggyback workarounds like power commanders or brain boxes that plug in between the ECU and the wiring harness. I'd rather have it done the right way since I don't live in a state where emissions testing is performed on any of our vehicles.

 

[tonyjuliano]

Silverluxe is absolutely correct because the engine is running >90% in the closed loop regime. Unless you are permanently revving up and down for getting rid of your rear tire after 1000 miles... And the fixed map regime could care less about exhaust flow. Can be seen from the minuscule claimed torque and power gains the muffler guys are providing....

There are to my knowledge 3 exhausts available with cat:
Termi
Remus
Zard low

I like the cat, stinks less and is less toxic.

>90% !!

That is patently false. And I know this because I spent the better part of the whole day yesterday at one of the most prestigious and respected Ducati performance shops in the country - sitting alongside the owner (and long time Ducati Racer) who was as curious about this as I was.

The fact is, the closed loop part of the system is enacted in a very narrow range of circumstances, and exists almost exclusively to get this air cooled bike to pass emissions, in conjunction with the CAT.

It hardly alters the map at all in normal circumstances, and never in more spirited situations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[igotone2]

All of the above, plus weight reduction.

The CAT and silencer on the Scrambler must weigh at least 15 lbs.

The cat and exhaust combo weighs just over 11 lbs, I had it off and weighed it three days ago. Personally I want to hear a little better ratio of exhaust howl vs valve clatter. I am considering buying a Supertrapp silencer and adapting it to the Scrambler Icon that I am riding - don't think it would be too hard to do.
Have a peek inside the cat.